NIME 41 | Note Investing

 

With a lengthy career in the note investing space, Fred Moskowitz doles out some tidbits of wisdom that he’s gained over the years. The opportunities to scale up exponentially and the number of vendors that can service every need are just some of the advantages that Fred finds in the note investing industry. There’s a lot of training and education in all budget levels that note investors can participate in which, according to Fred, is one of the most helpful things that you can do to stay in the business for a long time. He shares his opinion on where the note space is currently based on supply, pricing, and compliance. He also gives out some tips that can help you stay relevant and successful in your career.

Listen to the podcast here:

Staying Relevant In The Note Investing Space with Fred Moskowitz

I am joined here with Fred Moskowitz, Liberties Management and fellow Drexel alumni. Fred, welcome. How are you?

Martin, I’m doing great. Thank you for having me.

I think that everyone here is dying to know, did your parents pay for you to get into Drexel? Did they bribe any counselors or anything like that?

No, nothing like that at all.

You did get in based on your own merit? We have that on record.

Yes, based on my own merits, exactly.

NIME 41 | Note Investing

Note Investing: You can only scale buy and hold investing so much. You can’t keep scaling that without adding significant infrastructure around you to do it.

 

I think I got in there too not through good looks, not through any bribery, but I got in through a lot of hard work. I think we’re on the same page there. Fred you are an anomaly. I say that with respect because anyone here in the note business over a few years seems to be an anomaly. It seems to be you’ve already hit your stride and you’re here to stay. Tell us a little bit about what you attribute your longevity to be. Let’s start with day one. Tell us about how you got started in note investing.

I got started in note investing a few years ago. Even longer ago than that, I learned about note investing through an event I was attending at my local real estate investment group because Jimmy Napier came to our group and taught a workshop over the weekend and it was all about negotiation. Everyone may or may not be familiar with Jimmy Napier. He wrote the famous book Invest in Debt. I consider him as the grandfather of note investing. He wrote a detailed analysis book, which I recommend to everyone to read. In any event, he came to our real estate association to teach about negotiation in real estate deals or any type of business transaction. As is often the case with these types of seminars and workshops, sometimes the little side nuggets and conversations that happen are the ones where you benefit the most from. He talked a little bit about note investing.

He said, “Real estate is a great vehicle to generate wealth and capital when you’re young and you’re just starting out in life. You can buy real estate, hold it long-term and generate a significant amount of wealth over the long game. Once you have that, if you move into investing in debt, then you’re able to grow your capital at a significant rate and exponentially grow and progress.” That was a little side remark that he made that stuck in my mind. After that, I was looking into note investing and trying to learn about it. There wasn’t much information available and opportunities to learn. The only thing that I could see was that you could have a property, sell it on owner financing and originate loans that way and then hold the debt. A number of years later, I met Dave Van Horn from Partners for Payment Relief and they were just getting their business off the ground and starting to do educational teaching. That’s where I learned the ins and outs of note investing. That started my whole career there.

What was the thing with Jimmy’s side nugget that got you thinking? Was it the fact that you had already been thinking about going into rehabbing properties like hitting the real estate angle hard?

No, I already was doing it. I had had been and still am or buy and hold investor in rental real estate and income-producing property. What I found that was many of us come to this realization. You do that type of investing and you hit a wall. You can only scale that so much. Maybe you are comfortable managing five properties or ten properties, but what happens if you pushed that number to 50 or 100 or 1,000 units that you own? You can’t keep scaling that without adding significant infrastructure around you to do that. With notes, scaling is very different. You could scale a quickly and easily and be nimble, especially with changing markets.

There are fantastic vendors out there that can support you in everything. From servicing, from doing fieldwork, field visits out to properties such as what MCCI does. There are vendors for due diligence and title work. Everything you can possibly need, every service and level of support, you have that available to you. If you’re well organized and have good systems and structure in place, you’re able to ramp up and scale, which is fantastic. I think that’s one of the most powerful aspects of this industry. You can adjust to adapting market cycles. You’ve been at this a long time and you see how the market cycles go, they change, and you’re able to be flexible and adapt with that.

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Tell us about Jimmy Napier because a lot of us are not going to get that luxury of hearing him speak or taking one of his workshops or what have you. I understood he drove home the point of investing in debt when you met him. What were some of the things that got you excited when he was talking about it that you still remember?

There’s so much. It was understanding and analyzing cashflows. He got into a side conversation about partials and the fact that you could sell several years of payments off of the 30-year note and recapitalize your investment that way. Talking about parcels, talking about negotiating in general, that was the big benefit that I had as a takeaway, was negotiating a transaction. It doesn’t matter whether it’s notes or real estate, buy a car, haggling with any type of a transaction. It’s valuable life skills and how to negotiate, how to interact with people at a personal level and get them comfortable with you.

Get things into a comfortable situation for negotiating so that both parties are at ease and things go smoothly. If someone’s temper gets up, then it’s not going to end well. You don’t want to do that. You want to try to diffuse that situation. It’s almost like some of these hostage negotiators and the special training and techniques they use. It’s all valuable for business. That’s one area that I encourage anyone, no matter what you do, get up to speed on somebody’s skills. There are lots of books and resources out there. Take advantage of that.

I finished Chris Voss’ Never Split the Difference. Have you read that yet?

I have not.

It’s right up your alley.

NIME 41 | Note Investing

Note Investing: Don’t be shy about spending some money to travel and attend conferences.

 

I’ll add that to my list.

Maybe that’s something that is important to know, like you’re saying with borrowers that you’re working out to convert the note from nonperforming to performing, but also you’re referring to the sourcing.

The sourcing and the way you conduct your business in general. They’re all very important. Another takeaway that I had was the idea of dedicating and focusing on your own education, your own development. That’s one of the best investments that anyone can make. Invest in yourself. Budget off some amount of money each year into your own education, your own development. Whether that means going to note conferences so you can increase your education or attending a workshop on tax strategies for small businesses or attending a class on negotiation.

There’s so much out there for all budgets sizes that you can do. It’s one of the most powerful investments that you can make is investing in yourself. If you’re someone that is not comfortable speaking or conveying your ideas in a spoken manner or you’re nervous about speaking in public, go out and join Toastmasters. It’s a great organization. It’s a very low cost. You put in your time and work and build up all of those skills. There are so many resources out there and I encourage everyone to take advantage of that and dedicate a little bit of your time and your money each year doing that. It will pay off in the long run.

I think that’s great advice. Education should come in a variety of forms and it should not be specific to the note industry. You mentioned negotiation skills and reading books and becoming educated in that area because it would help you in note investing. Toastmasters, public speaking will help you in note investing. I got a lot of education by putting out the money to go to that IMN conference, which we saw each other then. Education from the perspective of positioning yourselves amongst higher-level peers, if you will, then hearing their thoughts on the industry and their experiences. That’s another form of education. Right on, Fred, great points on that front.

I think it’s very easy for any of us. We’re focused on our business and trying to generate deal flow and trying to grow our business, but don’t forget to focus on yourselves as well. There’s always something new to learn. There’s always a skill that you can improve on. Everyone, there’s a lot of small things that you can do. Here’s something I learned from Dave Van Horn that he’s spoken about numerous times. The idea of reading, reading books about business, about self-development. It could seem like a daunting task to try to read all these books. We talk about reading, but you know what I do? I read for fifteen minutes a day in the morning when I’m drinking my coffee. I get up early, I sit for ten or fifteen minutes a day and read. Sometimes it’s a chapter or so but a little bit each day and do that consistently. Over time, you read all these books. I keep a list just like the one you gave earlier of books that I want to read and I keep going through that. Be consistent, get some good habits for yourself and this is going to help you in the long run to be successful.

The best way to position yourself is to offer value first. Click To Tweet

Let’s bring it into the note industry a little bit. What are some of the tips that you can give from a sourcing perspective that have helped you have longevity in the industry?

Some tips would definitely be looking to attend conferences. There are a lot of them. I would not say you need to go to every single one but be selective. Find the ones that are going to give you what you’re looking for. Whether that education or networking or deal flow, pick the ones that you want to go to spend. Don’t be shy about spending some money to travel and attend the conferences. Meet people, meet as many people as you can and do a lot. That’s a good place for networking. You’re going to meet vendors that you need. You’re going to meet attorneys that you may need to work with, as well as other funds that are selling loans from time to time. You want to be well-positioned and be top of mind with them because as you know, note funds typically run for a life of a particular defined period of time.

When the time comes for them to close down, usually it’s at the end of the year. They need to liquidate all their assets. They are going to sell them and you want to be top of mind when they start looking at who they’re going to send a tape of loans out to sell. You want to be being in the mix there and be following up with note fund managers and asset managers and have a good Rolodex there of people they are reaching out to on a consistent basis as well. It’s a combination of in-person and remote through emails or phone calls to be constantly doing that and maintain your network.

Would you say that you work on sourcing on a daily basis? Not maybe the whole day, but you do spend some time every day on that. What conferences do you recommend? What conferences do you find the value out of? I know different people in different points in their stages in the note investing career may have different preferences. For you, where you’re at, where do you find value?

There are different ones. There is a DME, Distressed Mortgage Expo and Paper Source are excellent, well-run events. I like to attend also real estate-focused events as well like MidAtlantic Summit is particularly a good one. What I try to do is once a year at least looks for some business training, which is outside of notes as well, whether that’s on tax strategies or marketing or sales, all good skills for us to have in our skillset. I attended a two-day sales training given by Jeffrey Gitomer. If you’re not familiar with him, he’s put out a fantastic series of books about networking and sales and building rapport and how to add value to others. It’s a fantastic material. That was one of the best events I attended in 2018. It was fantastic. I always encourage people, yes, look at the note events, but don’t be shy about looking outside it out as well and try to work that into what you do.

It sounds like I just made the connection there that when you do your sourcing, you’re looking to see what value you can bring to the seller.

NIME 41 | Note Investing

Note Investing: To be able to remain in the note investing business for a long time, you have to be open to market cycle changes.

 

That’s a big thing is you want to offer value first. You don’t want to just reach out to someone and ask for something that’s not a good way to build rapport and build a relationship but offer value. If you can provide a referral to someone that’s going to help them do that, there are so many opportunities that you have to position yourself. What I find is that when you give out, you give of yourself out to the universe, out to the world at large, it comes back to you and it won’t come back to you from the same direction you gave to. It will be from somewhere else that you least expect it, some happenstance that it’s amazing. I believe that it’s very amazing how that works. I’m always happy I provide referrals to people. I don’t need anything in advance. If I’m using a great attorney and I’m happy with them, I’m happy to refer them to others. When an attorney sees you referring business out them, the next time you call them, you’re going to get to the top of the list on the calls back when they’re going to talk to you. It’s a matter of the goodwill and of the ability to add value to others because that’s what they’re going to remember about you the next time they see you.

There’s an attorney. His name’s Rick Lawrence in Indiana and I’ve referred him some deals. He called me one time to let me know that he had stumbled upon a twenty-note sell-off and it didn’t work out at the end, but the fact that he thought of me over all the other clients, that was good.

That’s exactly the thing I’m talking about. When a situation came up, he remembered you right away and gave you a call.

I can give anyone his information in Indiana if you’re looking for a good lawyer. The question I have is what your thought is, because you’ve seen years of behavior within the note space. What is your take on where we are now with notes in terms of supply, in terms of pricing, etc.?

I see that pricing is stable. It stopped going up. Supply is starting to increase slowly. Another interesting point is I see on the origination side, lending standards are still continuing to loosen for borrowers. There’s a lot more loan origination activity. I don’t know if that was the matter of interest rates going up and loan origination slowing down then or trying to keep that going. When lending requirements relax, that generally changes the quality of the loans and it’s a leading indicator for the future. There are definitely some different forces at work there. Overall, at least from note investors like us that were out there buying loans, buying pools, it’s a good outlook.

We’re leveraging off of what you’ve built over the years and it continues to pay dividends for you. Do you see the other side because you always hear about no prices have gone up? We’ve all seen that inventory especially on the level has gone down. Do you see at some point when we have a market correction that there’ll be more of a flow of inventory in this space?

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I imagine it’s like supply and demand. Supply and demand impacts all businesses and all types of assets. That will continue on. Another thing I see is compliance requirements continuing to ratchet up each year there’s more and more. They’re being added on. Nothing’s getting taken away. It is important to be mindful of that and where the changing landscape of compliance as well. I think that that’s something that deters people that are getting started because of the costs involved and work involved with compliance.

The risk of stumbling into something not knowing, like Ohio, what we’re talking about with Ohio and the certification you have to get for doing the workouts. It seems like it’s ever moving in that direction of regulation, but that’s always what the opportunity for those that are willing to study and learn and evolve from it. You do your own note workouts, obviously with legal and servicing and everything else or do you have someone that manages that for you?

It’s a hybrid. We’re starting to let servicers handle more of that as we’re growing with time. However still, carefully managing and managing any legal activity that’s going on.

Do you do a lot of the oversight?

A lot of oversight, yes.

How did it look in the beginning? For myself in the beginning, I used to self-service until the note performed and then I would set it up with servicing when it went to performing. A lot of people did that.

NIME 41 | Note Investing

Note Investing: There are a lot of computer systems you can use to manage your notes depending on your day-to-day operations and the direction you’d like to go in your career.

 

It feels like those days was the Wild West for note investing. I think it’s good, the changes that have happened. It adds a little bit of cost. In the end it’s good. It keeps everyone on a level playing field and very fair for borrowers and puts in specific processes in place. I don’t see it so much as a negative change, but it is something that you have to be adaptable and knowledgeable about and stay up to speed on the various changes that happen.

Do you see yourself as being labeled as a second mortgage guy?

I consider myself a note investor and a cashflow investor. I’m willing to explore different opportunities. Although the focus of my time and energy is in notes and we do a lot with junior liens. However, I would not be shy about first position loans or other types of debt. There are ways to generate a return from any of that. You have to be open to market cycle changes. If junior liens are no longer available or prevalent and some other type of debt is, then you have to be able to adapt to that. That’s going to help you. If there are market cycles, you can take advantage of those changes and get in and get out at the better times that will benefit you in the long run.

I think that’s something where Paper Source can be a real advantage to someone if they can get to that conference because it does explore all those different avenues. I remember when I was first getting started and I spent a little time with the kid, Ricky Bravo. He was going on and he was showing me his portfolio and he was dealing with the auto loans and he was trying to get student loans. Like the various ways of breaking into distress notes well beyond first mortgages.

You attend an event like Paper Source and you meet people that all they work in is auto debt, whether you’re originating it or working with defaults, but that’s their focus or medical debt or credit card debt. There are so many different avenues out there and people doing different things. It’s good, not that someone should scatter their focus, to be knowledgeable and learn about it and know who people are, meet people in those businesses. They are different verticals, but there’s still a lot you can learn.

I think one should have their focus in line who their target is, what they’re looking to be, etc. They can go explore Paper Source and other forms of cashflow. Initially it could be very distracting for someone. We have a question for you. We have two questions. The first one is, “Specifically in the morning, what is your daily routine?” You’ve touched on it already, but can you build off from the fifteen minutes of reading. What are some of the other things you do?

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It’s important for me, I like to read every day for a small amount of time. I’m very careful about my health and wellness. I like to eat well and careful about my nutrition and exercise, all these things. The reason for this is one of the biggest priorities I have in my life is to feel energetic and strong every day. I find that when I feel energetic and strong, the world around me responds to that in a powerful way. That propels everything else you’re doing. I’m very mindful about that. There are a lot of habits and things around all of that that I can get into, but I focus on nutrition, eating well, exercise and keeping my mind in a good place. Reading is excellent. I listen to a lot of podcasts and audiobooks as well for when I’m in the car. I’ll share this with you. I used to listen to so much talk radio and all these things in the car.

I eventually came to the realization that the media’s business model is they need to sell advertising. In order to do that, they need to bring all the shock and awe out and get people riled up. They’ll listen, they’ll watch eyeballs on the media. What I did was I went on a full media diet. I stopped all commercial radio. I don’t look at news websites or newspapers, anything, and changed my focus to listening to podcasts about business, about successful entrepreneurs or successful athletes. There are all different topics that you can find and audiobooks as well. When I’m in the car, I’m listening to that. I’m able to pop in Jim Rohn or any of these great educators out there and learn from their benefit. It’s almost like you have a personal mentor for an hour as you’re driving to an appointment to meet with an investor or someone. Now you have that. That’s something that’s changed my outlook significantly.

It’s taken away what I consider a negative dream on my energy and the way I feel. As far as habits, those are some of the things that I’ve tried to work into my life and my day-to-day activity. Definitely I encourage people, exercise is important. It doesn’t matter where you are, exercise, nutrition, everyone’s got to start from somewhere. If you focus on improving your health and your quality of life, that’s going to translate down to everything you do. As entrepreneurs, we need a lot of energy to do what we do, a lot of focus. That’s important. If you’re not into exercise or you’re not athletic, it’s totally fine. Get out, walk for a half-an-hour a day and do it consistently and start. Everyone’s got to start somewhere. Eventually, you could ramp that up as time goes on. Don’t lose sight of taking care of yourself for sure.

Fred, you are passionate. I love it. I will tell you that knowing you for years, you are much more expressive than you were when I first met you in general. You’ve built yourself into everything you’re doing more so or what. I think it’s awesome. We have another question, “Do you have a computer system you use to manage your notes?”

I’m in the process of changing. I’ve been using a combination of servicers platforms plus a CRM and I’m in the process now of evaluating a few different ones to change that. There are a lot of options out there from Excel spreadsheets. I know a lot of known investors like Podio, using it as a platform manager note portfolio. There are definitely different options and I haven’t settled on one I’m going to transition into yet. I’m still evaluating that.

Did you ever use Alberto’s Note Dashboard?

NIME 41 | Note Investing

Note Investing: When you’re feeling stressed, take the time to get away from the deals to clear your mind and come back with persistence and a fresh attitude.

 

No.

I used to use that and I know Fuquan used it as well. I don’t think Alberto is still in the market, but I always thought it was a good set up. When you got the notes performing, it brought you into note edge where you could automatically list the notes for sale as re-performers and as a way to if you want to take a liquidation route on the notes. Alberto is a big IT guy.

That definitely is his area of expertise for sure.

I know all of us, we do miss Alberto. Alberto, he’s far from dead. He’s doing very well. We miss him being in the note space and going to the conferences because that guy is awesome.

I see him publishing a lot online about IT infrastructure and handling big data, and that’s his area of expertise. He’s continuing to grow and do well with that.

I know we’re not going to go into the fun that you have, but if anyone has any questions about Liberties Management, Fred’s fund, you can get in touch with him privately on that. Tell us about how you’ve grown? Where’s Fred going in the note space, not in CrossFit, but in the note space?

I definitely have taken some new directions on. One of the things I’m doing. I’m trying to give back a little bit into the community, doing some more speaking and education. Whether it’s about notes or investing in general or teaching people about how to use self-directed IRAs or HSAs, which is one of my favorite topics to talk about. I do it as a gift back because I like seeing people succeed and there are so many options out there for folks and it pains me a lot to see someone that has a 401(k). They’re working in their career and they have a 401(k). When they come to the realization that over the last year they contributed their contribution amount, they got their matching and their 401(k) map account has grown by the same value as what went in there and nothing else. It’s because all the profits got eroded. That’s horrible. I want to empower people to learn how their options and then all the things they can invest in, whether it’s investing in a note fund or investing in a 500-unit apartment complex or investing in other cashflow investments that will benefit them. That’s something I get charged off about. I think that it’s a shame that so many people don’t know about this. That’s something that I’ve been doing over the last year is to change that direction a little bit and trying to spread that message.

I think I’m with you. You’re a very logical thinker and I’m going to chalk that up to your Drexel experience. I will say that you hit on the whole educational theme constantly, consistently educate yourself in getting it from various forms. From that point you’ll have confidence and then you can have empowerment and that should carry over to how you’re investing your IRAs and you need to take control through self-directed activity and build your own retirement portfolio.

It’s all about self-accountability. You have to take action and take control. You’re going to do better there than if somebody else is doing it for you. It’s like most things in life. If you take control and take an active role in your development, your results are going to be much better because no one’s going to have their eye on the ball better than you are, no matter what you’re doing.

I think to the point of taking control, it’s one thing Fred comes on here and he’s like, “Take control of your note business. Educate yourself, go to the right conferences, source every day.” That’s what Fred’s saying. I think it’s important also to know what you’re doing on your down days. When Fred wakes up and he’s like, “I don’t want to get out of bed,” or, “I have so much hair on this deal, it’s causing me so much stress and is this all worth it?” You’re having those down days. What are we talking here? Throw on Jim Rohn. I have thrown on Jim Rohn and listened to him ten hours straight when I’ve had time periods.

Other things you can do. Sometimes that’s a perfect time to take a break. Go out and take your children for ice cream, make an afternoon of it. Don’t see it as being irresponsible. Get yourself into a different environment for a couple of hours and clear your mind. Go outside, go for a walk in the park, go for a walk on the beach or whatever. Whatever you can do easily, even if it’s for an hour, get out, do something different. Go out to the gym for an hour and then come back and your mind is going to be cleared. That will help you push past some of those barriers and help you with your persistence. You do have to push through it. You can’t stay in bed and give up and not want to get out of bed. That’s not the right approach at all.

Most of the note investors, we all work out of our home. Few have office spaces and everything else. You’re on your own versus if you go sign up to be a realtor, get your license and you have a firm, you have a broker that’s mentoring you, you have other peer relationships in an office environment. You build camaraderie, go out for social, happy drinks and all that, happy hour drinks. As a note investor, you’re on your own. There are time periods where you’re like, “What do I do next? Is even what I’m doing having any value to it?” And you’re having all this self-doubt or this self-assessment. Even you get a loan modification in the door and you’re thinking like, “I can take off now. It’s Friday, I can go celebrate,” versus staying on the grind and finishing those calls that you need to make. There’s that form of self-discipline that you need to have. Gene Chandler said he works in one of his old cars.

NIME 41 | Note Investing

Note Investing: Doing self-reflection and making corrections that you can put into place over time with consistency is going to yield dramatic results for you.

 

That’s a perfect example. He can stop doing his work and find something you enjoy and you’re passionate about, a hobby or skill, and do that. Whether it’s music, playing an instrument or exercise, it doesn’t matter what, painting. Some people are into art. You can do that. Find other outlets that you have. Creative outlets are best and you can go in and do that for some amount of time. That’s a perfect example.

I know that you tune into a webinar and sometimes we’re talking technical talk about the workout process or something like that. I think this is an equally interesting topic because if you don’t have everything around you in balance and alignment or you’re not able to dig yourselves out of bad days. Put yourself down to an even keel on the good days where you can maintain a good flow for yourself, then you won’t have that longevity that you’re seeking.

It’s going to help you feeling well and feeling good and give you the fortitude to push past any negativity that may come up or any negativity that you’re feeling.

It’s interesting because I posted on the group page about the poll. How many tapes have you viewed in the past seven days? A lot of people put on three to five or three and up. A couple posted one to two and nobody post the zero that they haven’t seen any tapes for the week. I assume that if you haven’t viewed any tapes in the past seven days, you’re not going to vote yourself for that. The intention of putting the poll out there was to get you to think. You may have five tapes. I’ve spent a lot of time with someone I respect in the industry and they tell me that they get about three to four tapes every week, but they’re from the same seller and it’s the same junk that they’re seeing week in, week out. We were talking through things and I’m like, “Put those on the back burner. You need new sellers. You need to build a new environment for yourself.” There’s always room. It’s better to get one tape a month and have it be a stellar tape and get four or five junk tapes every week from the same player.

Yes, because that doesn’t help you in any way and it doesn’t advance your business. You could put yourself out for the world saying, “I’m buying notes, send me tapes,” and you’ll have all kinds of brokers may be sending you things that are getting recirculated. What you want to do is build relationships. That’s more important than looking at tapes because having the relationships in place is going to result in you getting access to tapes and then the tapes come to you and there will be better. It will be better quality. They’re not going to be, tapes are getting circulated 400 people at the same time. It’s going to change that in a big way.

It’s like any industry within the cashflow space. It’s the opportunities that you create are going to be the most lucrative. The ones that are out there in the mainstream are the least lucrative or you’re going to have to do the most picking through to find any value. Fred, you’re growing your note portfolio. You’re managing your fund. You’re very optimistic, I assume?

I see a lot of good things happening in our space and we’re looking forward to it.

What would you say to the audience that’s saying, “I have trouble sourcing notes?” What would be something you’d say to that person?

I would ask the question who are you surrounding yourself with and interacting with? First, take a look at that and see if you need to change that or get yourself around different people. It’s about networking and building relationships. If that’s not where you are, then find out what you need to change and change it. Put it into place. Go to a conference, go to events, build up your virtual Rolodex, your CRM of contacts and start reaching out to people on a regular basis. I put out a newsletter myself. I have a newsletter. It’s about investing in all different topics. I send it out and I get a lot of good responses that it gets forwarded to other people and they end up reaching out to me. There are so many different things you can do. People are starting podcasts now all the time. There’s so many of them out there. There are lots of ways to grow your presence and get yourself around different people.

Find people that are successful at whatever it is you want to learn and see how you can develop a relationship or learn from them or follow them online. There are so many ways that you can do that. Get yourself around different groups of people. If you’re interested in investing in a higher level, then get yourself around places or people that are already investing at a higher level, no matter what it is. It doesn’t necessarily have to be notes. Why not go to an apartment convention where most of the partnered owners, these are big deals, big complexes or commercial properties. Get around the different environment and see what people you can meet and have conversations with them. Have something to share, something to have value with of yourself and you’re going to find that that’s going to be a big game-changer.

I think like when you’re speaking, I think of what Dan Zitofsky was telling me a story. He got his largest investor at an art studio where they were having some type of social event. He wasn’t even thinking about real estate or anything and he was just attending this party. Sure enough, he got one of his largest investors out of that event. Putting yourself in different situations, you never know when things will come back to you. Stick-to-it-ness, I think I’m getting from everything you’re saying. My only take on tapes and sourcing is that how many quality tapes you view is a reflection of what you’ve done. If you do not see a lot of quality tapes come your way, you’re not doing something right and you need to go reassess what you’re doing or you’re not doing something right enough. Whatever the case, you need to do self-reflection and make corrections.

There can be small changes or small corrections that you can put into place and over time with consistency, it’s going to yield dramatic results for you.

Fred, we’re going to wrap up here.

Martin, I want to thank you for having me on. It’s been my pleasure and it’s always good talking to you,.

It’s so everyone knows, Fred’s going to be helping me out with picking up some of the days to do webinars. Some days you’ll see my ugly face, some days you’ll see Fred’s pretty face on doing some of the webinars going forward. I want to put that out there. I consider Fred a brother. I consider him a dear friend and he’s someone that I can always go to. I’ve had some hard times with an investment that I’ve been working, but Fred’s been there for me. The value that is to me, that will always stick with me. I need more people like that in my life. I think Fred would agree with that too. It’s surrounding yourself with people that are quality individuals that can lead you closer to your goals while you lead them closer to their goals at the end of the day. Thank you, Fred.

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